I agree reasonable, the gun did not walk into that theatre! The gun didnt do it just like the spoon didnt make me fat!

I agree with you about prayers.

But honestly in this debate, it's just as knee-jerk to argue he "could have been taken out" so let's relax gun laws more?

The suspect used a flash-bang strategy with tear-like gas canisters that caused chaos while he was covered head-to-toe in Kevlar. Sounds like he was ready for anyone to fire back.

On the flip side, in this situation, it sounds like stricter gun laws might have not stopped someone like this.

Still, we don't know enough facts yet. Let's wait to learn more before all the knee-jerk on both sides.

Dad, don't know if you have ever experienced tear gas in a closed room with HVAC but it dissipates quickly in that environment so yes he likely could have been taken out long before 59 wounded and 14 killed if a few patrons were allowed to be armed.

What I don't understand is the mentality that stricter gun laws prevent crime. They have pretty strict drug laws but they haven't even dented the illegal drug trade in this country. Check the links I posted and see how guns can save as well as kill.

Ezharden,

Hmm, if tear gas dissipates quickly, then why didn't the police "take him out"? They were there in 90 seconds and are the professionals. Surely, they could have entered the darkened theater or maybe even the projection room.

My basic point is other armed people in that theater doesn't ensure the bad guy gets "taken out." In fact, maybe more people get shot in the crossfire. The truth is we'll never know and if we can learn anything from this tragedy to change laws, it won't be known until we get many more facts.

Good comments from everyone. The few jerks that use the guns in a bad way, should not be a cause to take away our rights to protect ourselves. this is trite, but what some people think is if there is a bad apple or apples in the basket, we should throw the whole basket of apples out.

Very well put. I whole heartedly agree with you. Thank you for your comment.

Marooned in Dbn he might some day save your life with that gun,lived in Dearborn for 53 years it not the same as the old days you lock your doors now.I open and cc all the time has saved me twice once at a atm in west Dearborn and once in Waterford while visiting a friend someone wanted my money and car if not for puling out my legal pistol i might not be here to comment on your take.Thank god we are allowed to own weapons!

It's ok Marooned, lots of people have phobias. My wife is agoraphobic. Now that you've recognized your hopliphobia you can deal with it on a rational basis.

Yeah, Joe Blow, he might, but more than likely he could also be a hot head and draw at the smallest self-imagined provocation .
As for you Mr. Gambino, define "hopliphobia", in terms that ppl who are not professional psychoanalysts can understand, you know, for the benefit of the average readership on this forum. Esp. for ppl who don't regularly sling around 10 dollar words. I was born during the Eisenhower administration, so I've been around for quite a while. I assure you that I have plenty of experience shooting all kinds of arms, probably from before you were even born, and , yes, after looking at that guy with the gun, I am not ashamed of saying that I was filled with dread at the sight of him, esp. when he is staring at you like he is thinking "make my day". For heavens sakes, I was just trying to buy some apricots.

Good, GTFO. Then keep going until you get to the border, then keep on going.

Neil, are you suggesting that I go all the way to Mexico to buy Apricots? Or am I suppost to patronise Canadian fruit Mkts. (?)

The guy snuck in and I respect the fact they were trying to be pro active in creation of the law. I dont see them as having blood on their hands, however if they had concern when creating the law, I have a hard time understanding why they would allow the costumes etc.

Thanks, I was thinking it was the fear of holsters. :)

Well marooned you asked for a definition. Remember Google is your friend. And so is a good open carried hand gun.

Well, if I'm in a store and I see someone carrying - I leave.

Because when you CC you look just like another helpless unarmed citizen, because I never want to put myself in the position to have to use it. And not that it is a fact because there are lots of crazies out there but I believe 9 out of 10 criminals dont want to rob the guy who they know is armed.

However anyone decides to carry OC or CC, at least you've taken steps to ensure yours and your familys well being

Ryan, don't be too sure about who wants to rob whom. There are relatively few open carriers out there. Open carriers who have some training and who THINK they can handle themselves in a gunfight but who have never found out for sure may be rudely awakened when up against an experienced armed robber. What's going to happen when some penitentiary veteran needs a piece to rob a liquor store and he sees some fat, middle aged would-be gunslinger walking through the liquor store parking lot with a $1000.00 Kimber displayed for all to see? It would take about two seconds for him to take it away from the suburban warrior. Best to carry concealed. The reason you don't hear about open carriers being robbed for their fancy guns is because there aren't that many open carriers around. Best to carry concealed and maintain an element of surprise if you're going to carry.

The first part of your reply can be addressed to anyone who carries, not just an OC'er. A CC'er is just as likley to be ill prepared and taken off gaurd even though they "THOUGHT" they could handle themselves. And though OC is still a minority I think you are mistaken by how many of us there are. And I firmly stand by my statement that an Openly Carried firearm IS a crime detterant. I carry my firearm for DEFENCE and last I knew the "element of surprise" was an OFFENSIVE tactic, why do you carry yours?

The supposed magical mystical super Ninja concealed carry "element of surprise" is a myth perpetrated so folks can "feel" like they have some kind of special "edge".

The "element of surprise" is an offensive, not defensive, tactic. And as an offensive tactic it favors the attacker... not the defender.

And the attacker understands the concept of the "element of surprise" because he uses it to either sneak up on his victims... or to engage in some seemingly innocent behavior in order to catch his victims off guard.

The "element of surprise" happens to the victim when they are "surprised" by the need to defend themselves.

What amendment was that you refer to, about not being afraid? And how to you "allow" a right like concealment? If you "allow" a "right" you don't have a right, you have a privilege. Earlier this year, Lansing was looking at a constitutional convention, it's a regularly scheduled option built into law. The idea was crushed very quickly. The politicians didnt want it, neither did the people.
You are making assumptions based on feelings while the facts show the opposite. Openly carrying firearms is the only effective way to protect your rights. Concealed carry actually hurts your rights because all the voters and politicians ever see, is presented to them through the media, either through coverage of things like this, eminem, movies and so on.

Not sure some people's feeling should come into play. People can be intimidated by many things. Where do you draw the line? Open carry has it's advantages.

Neil, My thought is this, people are open carrying and scaring people. You have freedom of speach, but it is against the law to scream it in a movie theatre. Why? Obviously because it causes panick and impedes rights on rights of others. I look at open carry as potentially (well scratch potentially as in Birmingham I saw witness accounts on television of scared pedestrians with guy walking with a loaded long gun down Maple). They were terrified. anyways, I think by people carrying openly could open the door for amenments on open carry and concealment. Would that be the result they seek?

I would like to see this cite on it being, against the law, to scream in a theater, please. And would love to see anywhere you or anybode has, the right, to not feel scared or uncomfertable. Perhaps some people are made uncomfertable by gay couples and we should create laws to stop them from holding hands and kissing in public places? And how would you expect people to become desensitized of open carry if people are not allowed to do it? I myself would argue that CC while you may not hurt people precious "feeeellllinngs" you may not be able to get to you gun in time in the seconds a confrentaion normally takes, get the hammer stuck, fumbling through a couple layers of clothing, pocket or purse wont unzip? I would also argue that the "element of surprise" a CC'er feels they need to have is an invatation to a robber trying to mug you. Obviously this is not everyones intent but the feeling I get from many. While the OC'er has nothing to hide and everything is out in the open, How many robbers or criminals can you find to have been open carrying before they commit their crime, I would doubt any. People should not fear the gun in the holster they can see, but the one somebody is trying to hide. And for myself and 99% of the OC movement it is not about "feeling taller, more invincible, or intimidation" as you infer, I Open carry so the criminal may see my weapon and leave me alone, A faster more realiable draw, a more comfertable carry. And so people may see regular people do carry

Also they weren't "flash bangs" it was a smoke/tear gas like canister

NUTS is when people like you leave only an active shooter with a gun, it ends like this, and you still want to enable that person to kill people like you.

I say people like you, because I carry a gun, which makes me a little harder to aim at.

Go to a movie with a friend. Have them get up and stand at the front of the theater during the movie. You can see them quite well right? Just because a person is armed does not mean they will not know when to take a shot. You do know not everything on TV shows and in the movies is true, right? Since you want to "what if" to the extreme, let us say you were there. And you were one of the people 20 feet from him that reported they could see them clear as day and where he was pointing the gun. You want your phone in your hand or a pistol?

"Men & guns - I don't even get it." Educate yourself and you will. If you still don't I hope you never learn the hard way.

So you've proven you're reckless with a car - but you're allowed to carry a deadly weapon around with you. Makes a lot of sense.

I'm pro gun, have a Michigan CPL, and carry almost daily. You mention that you got a reckless driving ticket, are you sure that you are really competent to carry a firearm? How would you handle a road rage situation? Do you think announcing on a public form that you carry and have a reckless driving violation adds fuel to the Anti Gunners???

Neil, I dont see what a reckless driving ticket has to do with concealed weapons? It are abuses like these by our Government that has so many suspicious of them. Carrying is a right, driving is a priviledge.

Uh huh.

So you can't operate a motor vehicle responsibly but feel you should have a CPL?

I have a hunch you are the same person I saw on one of the open carry sites that advocates smoking marijuana and carrying a gun.

I was trying to show the ridiculousness and ineffectiveness of gun control.

I agree with you 100 percent ,Alan,

Alan, you just crossed into the waters of a huge part of the problem. A huge number of people with mental disorders are nearly impossible to refer for tratment. We only need to look to the shootings where the congressional member was shot. This gentleman had previously sent up all kinds of red flags with college, friends and police department of potential danger, but it was not enough for the school or anyone to refer him to treatment. And even in cases like this, the guy was seeing a psychologist and still amaased a stock pile of weapons and explosives while attending treatment. I dont know the answer to this. I guess does our personal safety trump our right to ownership? Perhaps if legislators focused on answers to questions like these instead of denying right to carry over non violent thigs like traffic tickets, we may have better laws in place?

regardless if the analogy is the best to compair I believe he is right. The earth is ROUND and gun control does NOT work.

Dear store owners,

Neil leaves stores that post "no guns". I leave stores where I see wannabe cops seeking attention by openly carrying guns. Think George Zimmerman.

You decide who you want in your store.

Oh, and Neil - the public does not need your protection.

Addition to Heartland Eagle's notice to store owners:

Statistically more criminals rob stores that have "No Gun" signs than other stores because they know they will not be challenged and potentially arrested or shot.

Now who do you want in your store? The people that are so afraid of a holstered weapon and the criminals or the person with a holstered weapon that may make a criminal think twice before robbing you?

Love to see your source on that, Ezer.

I'm not afraid of holstered weapons. I'm afraid of the people that feel the need to carry them everywhere they go.

Again - I don't need you to protect me. You are not a cop.

Mostly reading the news involving armed robberies in Ohio where they have the "Magic Signs" that stop criminals. One instance comes to mind, a husband shooting his wife, a coworker and himself at a Barney's that had just such a sign.

I carry a weapon everywhere I legally can because unlike you, I do not have a Police Officer at my side 24/7 to protect me. I carry to protect myself so don't flatter yourself that I am concerned about protecting you. If you are protected it is a byproduct of me protecting myself. However as you do not want the protection of any armed citizen and only want the police to protect you, please let us know who you are and what you look like so we can be sure to mind our own business if we see you being attacked.

I don’t like businesses that create gun free zones either. However, Neil please keep your gun holstered when I am shopping in the store as I have my own.

And yet, somehow, amazingly, without a police officer by my side 24 hours a day, nor a gun on my hip whenever I leave the house - I've never had anything happen to, or around me that's required a gun, or even thinking about calling the police.

Truth is, the vast majority of you have no reason whatsoever to carry a gun around - other than to make yourself feel important. Case in point, the comments here about how you're "protecting" others.

The gun homicide rate is more than double in the US than what it is in Canada. It's 5 times what it is in Germany. It's a hundred times what it is in Japan.

Not to mention the almost 20000 Americans a year that commit suicide by gun.